family variance changes
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family variance changes



Dear ASREML users
I am somewhat puzzled by the extreme increase in family variance shown
below. The first analysis was for 1117 records, from 20 families. Then this
was rerun, with the addition of 2 families (& only 118 more records),
giving 1235 records and a total of 22 families. The family variance
increased from 0.682415E-04 to 18.7069. The incomplete block (lblk)
variance changed from 0.527994 to 0.693685E-04. Note that the gamma value
for family in the first analysis is the same as the gamma for incomplete
block in the second. Can anyone (Arthur? ) shed some light on these results?

Also, I have been trying to run a 5 trait multivariate, but cannot get
convergence. The first 4 traits work OK, but when I add the next (even
using results from the univariate for the starting values for the
variances, but stil guessing at covariances betwwen the fifth trait and the
other 4) I have problems. Any ideas? Or am I just pushing things a bit far?
Is doing 10 bivariates a safer (but more tedious) option?
Thanks in advance
Sue


  ASREML [23 Oct 1998]   OP trials -
                
 12/08/98 17:49:40.60       8.00 Mbyte    3944a
 ! rerun with 4799 records Tues 8/12/98, lblk random                 
 ! families h6 & h15 excluded (because ramet collections) and
   
 ! no controls (entr<23)
   
 QUALIFIERS: !skip 1 !filter 1 !select 4                                 
 Reading 394.csv  FREE FORMAT skipping            1 lines
 Univariate analysis of db8                 
 Using     1117 records [of    4799 read from    4799 lines of 394.csv
       ]
  Model term      Size Type    COL   Minimum    Mean      Maximum   #zero
#miss
   1 site            4 Factor    1      4     4.0000          4         0
  0
   2 expt            4 Factor    2      4     4.0000          4         0
  0
   3 family         22 Factor    3      1    10.3769         20         0
  0
   4 blk             5 Factor    4      1     3.4691          6         0
  0
   5 lblk            6 Factor    5      1     2.9409          5         0
  0
   6 select          2 Factor    6      1     1.5944          2         0
  0
   7 ht1             1 Covariat  7 0.0000     0.0000     0.0000         0
1117
   8 ht4             1 Covariat  8 0.0000     0.0000     0.0000         0
1117
   9 db8             1 Variate   9  21.00      145.8      216.0         0
  0
  10 ht8             1 Covariat 10  1.000      118.2      168.0         0
  0
  11 st8             1 Covariat 11  1.000      1.324      4.000         0
  1
  12 db12            1 Covariat 12  27.00      182.9      276.0         0
 10
  13 ht12            1 Covariat 13  106.0      180.9      218.0         0
727
  14 vs_il12         1 Covariat 14  1.000      2.490      6.000         0
 40
  15 nw12            1 Covariat 15  1.000      7.376      14.00         0
566
  16 st12            1 Covariat 16  1.000      3.216      7.000         0
 24
  17 mu              1 Constant Term
  18 family.lblk   132 Interaction  3 family:   22    5 lblk          :    6
 Forming          162 equations:            2 dense
 Initial updates will be shrunk by factor    0.548
 NOTICE:    48 (more) singularities,
 LogL=-4231.79     S2=  658.21       1116 df  0.10000    0.10000    0.10000
   
   1.0000    
 LogL=-4216.91     S2=  675.36       1116 df
0.10000E-010.10000E-010.35135E-01
   1.0000    
 LogL=-4214.84     S2=  682.10       1116 df
0.10000E-020.10000E-020.25398E-01
   1.0000    
 LogL=-4214.75     S2=  682.41       1116 df
0.10000E-030.73854E-030.25550E-01
   1.0000    
 LogL=-4214.74     S2=  682.42       1116 df
0.10000E-040.77500E-030.25588E-01
   1.0000    
 Final parameter values
0.10000E-060.77371E-030.25598E-01
   1.0000    

   Source               Model  terms     Gamma     Component    Compnt/StndErr
  family                   22     20  0.100000E-06  0.682415E-04      0.00 P  
  lblk                      6      5  0.773714E-03  0.527994          0.15 P  
  family.lblk             132     87  0.255979E-01   17.4684          1.28 P  
   Variance              1117   1116   1.00000       682.415         22.84 P  
                     Solution       Standard Error    T-value     T-prev
  17 mu                       1    21889.55    21889.55             [DF
F_inc F_all]
                    1    145.821       0.985601        147.95
   3 family                  20 effects fitted
   5 lblk                     5 effects fitted
  18 family.lblk             87 effects fitted
 SLOPES FOR LOG(ABS(RES)) on LOG(PV) for Section   1
   1.10
          17 possible outliers: see .res file
 Finished: 17:49:45.05                LogL Converged
                      


  ASREML [23 Oct 1998]  OP trials -
               
 12/08/98 19:38:29.70       8.00 Mbyte    3944b
 ! rerun with 5279 records Tues 8/12/98, lblk random              
 ! families h6 & h15 NOT excluded, still no controls (entr<23)
                                         
 QUALIFIERS: !skip 1 !filter 1 !select 4                                 
 Reading 394.csv  FREE FORMAT skipping            1 lines
 Univariate analysis of db8                 
 Using     1235 records [of    5279 read from    5279 lines of 394.csv
       ]
  Model term      Size Type    COL   Minimum    Mean      Maximum   #zero
#miss
   1 site            4 Factor    1      4     4.0000          4         0
  0
   2 expt            4 Factor    2      4     4.0000          4         0
  0
   3 family         22 Factor    3      1    11.3741         22         0
  0
   4 blk             5 Factor    4      1     3.4680          6         0
  0
   5 lblk            6 Factor    5      1     2.9514          5         0
  0
   6 select          2 Factor    6      1     1.5935          2         0
  0
   7 ht1             1 Covariat  7 0.0000     0.0000     0.0000         0
1235
   8 ht4             1 Covariat  8 0.0000     0.0000     0.0000         0
1235
   9 db8             1 Variate   9  15.00      147.2      216.0         0
  0
  10 ht8             1 Covariat 10  1.000      118.8      168.0         0
  0
  11 st8             1 Covariat 11  1.000      1.387      4.000         0
  1
  12 db12            1 Covariat 12  17.00      184.5      276.0         0
 10
  13 ht12            1 Covariat 13  106.0      181.2      218.0         0
806
  14 vs_il12         1 Covariat 14  1.000      2.464      6.000         0
 42
  15 nw12            1 Covariat 15  1.000      7.511      14.00         0
625
  16 st12            1 Covariat 16  1.000      3.346      8.000         0
 26
  17 mu              1 Constant Term
  18 family.lblk   132 Interaction  3 family:   22    5 lblk          :    6
 Forming          162 equations:            2 dense
 Initial updates will be shrunk by factor    0.548
 NOTICE:    36 (more) singularities,
 LogL=-4686.05     S2=  665.74       1234 df  0.10000    0.10000    0.10000
   
   1.0000    
 LogL=-4675.24     S2=  693.53       1234 df
0.10000E-010.10000E-010.25305E-01
   1.0000    
 LogL=-4673.61     S2=  694.83       1234 df
0.21936E-010.10000E-020.14884E-01
   1.0000    
 LogL=-4673.52     S2=  693.89       1234 df
0.26510E-010.10000E-030.14939E-01
   1.0000    
 LogL=-4673.52     S2=  693.69       1234 df
0.26957E-010.10000E-040.15226E-01
   1.0000    
 Final parameter values
0.26967E-010.10000E-060.15265E-01
   1.0000    

   Source               Model  terms     Gamma     Component    Compnt/StndErr
  family                   22     22  0.269674E-01   18.7069          1.72 P  
  lblk                      6      5  0.100000E-06  0.693685E-04      0.00 P  
  family.lblk             132     97  0.152655E-01   10.5894          0.88 P  
   Variance              1235   1234   1.00000       693.685         23.89 P  
                     Solution       Standard Error    T-value     T-prev
  17 mu                       1    13886.94    13886.94             [DF
F_inc F_all]
                    1    147.263        1.24965        117.84
   3 family                  22 effects fitted
   5 lblk                     5 effects fitted
  18 family.lblk             97 effects fitted
 SLOPES FOR LOG(ABS(RES)) on LOG(PV) for Section   1
   0.62
          18 possible outliers: see .res file
 Finished: 19:38:37.50                LogL Converged
                      


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
HA & SF Jarvis
"Aramis" RSD 820
Dorodong via Penola 
SA 5277

Phone/Fax:  03 55 838232 (+61 3 55 838232)
Email: aramis@dove.net.au

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


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