Dear Rob,
Thanks for your reply. I noticed that it is exactly coded the way you
have described in your email below.
Best Regards,
-Subash
314-694-6364
From: ASReml users discussion group [mailto:ASREML-L_at_DPI.NSW.GOV.AU] On
Behalf Of Rob Woolaston
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 2:45 PM
To: ASREML-L_at_DPI.NSW.GOV.AU
Subject: Re: Different Models producing same results
Subash
This suggests to me that your entries are coded in such a way that once
you have specified entry, you have automatically specified group. No
matter what you put on the model line, ASReml can work out that entries
are in fact nested within group and so the two factors cannot be
independent. If the same entry code appeared in more than one group,
the degrees of freedom would be different in the two models and you'd
expect different answers. If you had "ENTRY" spelt correctly on the
tabulate line, this would become apparent in the .tab file.
rw
________________________________
From: ASReml users discussion group [mailto:ASREML-L_at_DPI.NSW.GOV.AU] On
Behalf Of KRISHNAMURTHY, SUBASH [AG/1000]
Sent: Friday, 6 November 2009 6:04 AM
To: ASREML-L_at_DPI.NSW.GOV.AU
Subject: Different Models producing same results
All,
I am fitting the following two models in ASREML. They are identical
except for the part highlighted in YELLOW. The two models produce
identical results. The first model is saying ENTRY is nested within
GROUP1 and in the second model, the two factors GROUP1 and ENTRY are
modeled as independent factors. Why would the two models produce
identical results?
Model1
!PATH 4 #MULTI LOC MULTI REP BLUE G1-Fixed ENTRY-FIXED
tabulate RESPONSE ~ GROUP1 ENRTY
RESPONSE ~ mu GROUP1/ENTRY !r LOC/REP LOC.GROUP1 LOC.REP.GROUP1
predict GROUP1 !PRESENT GROUP1 ENTRY !SED !TDIFF
predict GROUP1.ENTRY !SED !TDIFF
Model2
!PATH 4 #MULTI LOC MULTI REP BLUE G1-Fixed ENTRY-FIXED
tabulate RESPONSE ~ GROUP1 ENRTY
RESPONSE ~ mu GROUP1 ENTRY !r LOC/REP LOC.GROUP1 LOC.REP.GROUP1
predict GROUP1 !PRESENT GROUP1 ENTRY !SED !TDIFF
predict GROUP1.ENTRY !SED !TDIFF
ASR file from Model1
ASR File from Model 2
ASReml 2.00b [01 Jul 2006] ASREML GUBD MODULE
Build: w [ 1 Oct 2008] 32 bit
05 Nov 2009 13:52:27.004 1264.00 Mbyte Windows GUBD_Integrated_Module
Licensed to: Monsanto
***********************************************************
* SYNTAX change: A/B now means A A.B *
* *
* Contact support_at_asreml.co.uk for licensing and support *
***************************************************** ARG *
Approximate stratum variance decomposition
Stratum Degrees-Freedom Variance Component Coefficients
LOC 3.00 834.703 18.4 9.1 1.8
1.0
LOC.REP 4.02 441.324 0.0 9.7 1.9
1.0
LOC.REP.GROUP1 27.93 496.102 0.0 0.0 3.6
1.0
Residual Variance 131.05 29.3327 0.0 0.0 0.0
1.0
Source Model terms Gamma Component Comp/SE
% C
LOC 4 4 0.771952 22.6434 0.56
0 P
LOC.REP 8 8 0.606630 17.7941 0.54
0 P
LOC.GROUP1 20 20 0.535386E-07 0.157043E-05 0.00
0 B
LOC.REP.GROUP1 40 40 4.38474 128.616 3.51
0 P
Variance 192 166 1.00000 29.3327 8.09
0 P
Warning: Code B - fixed at a boundary (!GP) F - fixed by user
? - liable to change from P to B P - positive definite
C - Constrained by user (!VCC) U - unbounded
S - Singular Information matrix
S means there is no information in the data for this parameter.
Very small components with Comp/SE ratios of zero sometimes indicate
poor
scaling. Consider rescaling the design matrix in such cases.
Analysis of Variance NumDF DenDF_con F_inc F_con M
P_con
10 mu 1 3.0 2786.24
2786.24 . <.001
5 GROUP1 4 28.2 1.48 1.48 A
0.235
11 GROUP1.ENTRY 21 131.7 1.06 1.06 B 0.405
Notice: The DenDF values are calculated ignoring
fixed/boundary/singular
variance parameters using algebraic derivatives.
1 LOC 4 effects fitted
12 LOC.REP 8 effects fitted
13 LOC.GROUP1 20 effects fitted
15 LOC.REP.GROUP1 40 effects fitted
Finished: 05 Nov 2009 13:52:27.129 LogL Converged
ASReml 2.00b [01 Jul 2006] ASREML GUBD MODULE
Build: w [ 1 Oct 2008] 32 bit
05 Nov 2009 13:53:00.399 1264.00 Mbyte Windows GUBD_Integrated_Module
Licensed to: Monsanto
***********************************************************
* SYNTAX change: A/B now means A A.B *
* *
* Contact support_at_asreml.co.uk for licensing and support *
***************************************************** ARG *
Approximate stratum variance decomposition
Stratum Degrees-Freedom Variance Component Coefficients
LOC 3.00 834.703 18.4 9.1 1.8
1.0
LOC.REP 4.02 441.324 0.0 9.7 1.9
1.0
LOC.REP.GROUP1 27.93 496.102 0.0 0.0 3.6
1.0
Residual Variance 131.05 29.3327 0.0 0.0 0.0
1.0
Source Model terms Gamma Component Comp/SE
% C
LOC 4 4 0.771952 22.6434 0.56
0 P
LOC.REP 8 8 0.606630 17.7941 0.54
0 P
LOC.GROUP1 20 20 0.535386E-07 0.157043E-05 0.00
0 B
LOC.REP.GROUP1 40 40 4.38474 128.616 3.51
0 P
Variance 192 166 1.00000 29.3327 8.09
0 P
Warning: Code B - fixed at a boundary (!GP) F - fixed by user
? - liable to change from P to B P - positive definite
C - Constrained by user (!VCC) U - unbounded
S - Singular Information matrix
S means there is no information in the data for this parameter.
Very small components with Comp/SE ratios of zero sometimes indicate
poor
scaling. Consider rescaling the design matrix in such cases.
Analysis of Variance NumDF DenDF_con F_inc F_con M
P_con
10 mu 1 3.0 2786.24 2786.24 .
<.001
5 GROUP1 4 28.2 1.48 1.48 a
0.235
8 ENTRY 21 131.7 1.06 1.06 A
0.405
Notice: The DenDF values are calculated ignoring
fixed/boundary/singular
variance parameters using algebraic derivatives.
1 LOC 4 effects fitted
11 LOC.REP 8 effects fitted
12 LOC.GROUP1 20 effects fitted
14 LOC.REP.GROUP1 40 effects fitted
Finished: 05 Nov 2009 13:53:00.477 LogL Converged
Best Regards,
Subash Krishnamurthy
BioStatistician
Monsanto
ADR: 800 North Lindbergh Blvd.
Creve Ceour MO-63376
TEL: 314-694-6364
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Received on Fri Nov 05 2009 - 16:35:36 EST
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